The French “Picasso of desserts” shares his vision of pastry making, from the great classics to the latest trends: “What I really like in Italy is panettone. I learned how to make it 20 years ago thanks to Iginio Massari.” Level of difficulty? “For me, it's the most complex dessert of all, even more so than macarons!”
Portraits by Patrick Rougereau
Photos of desserts by Laurent Fau/ photos of panettone by Patrick Rougereau
What is the relationship—if any—between French and Italian pastry-making?
I believe there are talented pastry chefs in both France and Italy. Italy has an important tradition, with classic desserts that are often found in restaurants, hotels, and shops because they are unmissable and what people are looking for. But then there are also pastry chefs who offer more daring and creative creations that work well. But what I really like in Italy is panettone, working with sourdough. I learned this thanks to Iginio Massari, who taught us how to make panettone 20 years ago.
And so I've been making panettone in Paris for 20 years now. I started by making one type of panettone, then two, then three, then four. And today in Paris, during the Christmas season, many pastry chefs sell panettone. But we are truly trained to make the best panettone possible, we even use flour that we import from Italy. And every year, one of our pastry chefs goes to Iginio to get updated and see if there are any new developments. For us, panettone is the most difficult thing to make. Because you have to be very careful about everything. You can't leave anything to chance.
It's a job where there's no room for improvisation. You have to respect the process. You have to respect the temperatures, measure the pH, the acidity. It's harder to make a panettone than any other dessert, such as a layer cake or ganache. It's definitely the most complex product we make at Pierre-Hermé Paris. My next challenge is pandoro, I love it! We've started doing some tests and it seems even more complicated. So that's a challenge. When I talk about a challenge, I choose my words carefully because I understand the complexity of the process.
Making macarons isn't easy either...
But compared to panettone, there's no comparison.
Do you think your clientele has changed over time?
I'll speak about France: people are quite curious to discover new things. Both new flavors and desserts that appeal to them aesthetically. I think our customers are generally curious. Of course, they always appreciate the great classics. Chocolate éclairs and mille-feuilles remain must-haves. But I find that our French customers are very open to new things. We have fifteen types of desserts in our range. Among these, there are five that never change and always work (Ispahan, Infiniment vanille, 2000 Feuilles, Plaisir Sucré, Carrément chocolat, ed.). But people are curious to try new things. For example, there are seasonal products.
When strawberries arrive, everyone wants to eat strawberries. So during that period, strawberry desserts are very popular. Then cherries, apricots, peaches, all the seasonal fruits. We recently started selling a fig and fig leaf cake. Apple and pear cakes will be arriving soon. Even with macarons, our customers are quite open to new flavors. I always try to introduce different flavors. Recently, we had macarons with tomato leaves and black olives, and lime and tarragon macarons. These are unusual flavors, but they have their fans.
In your opinion, is there anything that is overrated among the trends in the world of pastry today?
Of course, I observe trends, but they are not of great interest to me. What interests me today is working on two areas. There are certainly others, but at the moment I am focused on these two. The first is plant-based pastries: I have been working on this for five years and there is always a plant-based dessert in our assortments. Because today, if you go to a restaurant, there has to be a plant-based option. This is not yet the case in pastry shops, but I think it will become so. I believe that a plant-based dessert, when it is very good and made like a traditional dessert but with plant-based ingredients, i.e. no eggs, no milk, no cream, no butter, can achieve very good results. The second area of work that interests me and that I have been pursuing for almost 5-6 years is Gourmandise Raisonnée (literally, reasoned gluttony).
It is a reflection on the nutritional value of the ingredients, but always with taste as the starting point. So we maintain the taste and reduce the calories by using less butter, less fat, and less sugar. And in our assortment, we always have a product that follows this line. Right now, for example, we offer a cake with a vegetable shortcrust pastry with lime jam, lemon cream, and catmint marshmallows. The cake has about 160-170 calories, so just a little more than an apple. But above all, it is very good because we have reduced the sugar, eliminated the butter even in the cream, and therefore the taste of lemon is even more intense. These are some ideas, I think there may be others, but these are the ones that interest me.
In recent years, we have seen pastry become viral on social media. In your opinion, why are there very famous pastry chefs on social media, even though, for example, people have not actually tasted their products?
I find it much easier to take beautiful photos of desserts than photos of savory dishes, such as meat or fish. And it's true that desserts have a tremendous advantage on social media because they are immediately very appetizing. Some pastry chefs don't have a shop. I'm thinking, for example, of Amaury Guichon, who has 60 million followers across all social media platforms. His work is very aesthetic, very technical, and very beautiful. On the other hand, he has a school where he trains pastry chefs in modern techniques and everything else, but it's true that customers who go on social media can't eat his desserts. For Cédric Grolet, on the other hand, anyone can go and buy his creations in one of his shops in Paris or elsewhere. So not only has he made himself known through social media, but people can also taste his cakes.
How do you see the profession of pastry chef in the future?
For me, the only thing that matters is taste. People buy a dessert first and foremost because it looks good, because it looks appetizing, but if the taste disappoints, they won't buy it again. Our job is to convey emotions. You can say whatever you want, but the desserts we sell must evoke emotions in those who taste them. Otherwise, they are useless.
Do you prefer sweet or savory?
Savory for nourishment and sweet for pleasure.
How did you meet Simone Cantafio?
Last year, we booked a week's vacation here at La Perla in Corvara. We didn't realize there was a Michelin-starred restaurant. When we arrived, we discovered it and said to ourselves, “Fantastic!” We went to dinner at La Stüa and met Simone, and wow! It was a revelation because I really appreciated his cuisine, the precision and simplicity (here is our review of the 2025 menu, ed.). You can see that there is a lot of work behind it, a simplicity that is only apparent, and then everything is delicious. Afterwards, I had the opportunity to talk to him, and he explained his work in close contact with local producers. He has an authentic spirit, a job based on his savoir-faire, his is a creative interpretation of cuisine but with solid classical foundations.
You have started a collaboration with a restaurant and a hotel in Capri.
Yes, we are happy to be working at Capri Palace and at the restaurant L'Olivo, where we are in charge of the dessert menu. We should continue next year too!
